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'Fighting Insanity'
Setting the record on Mormons straight

Abstract:
This may surprise some people, but I do not have horns and a tail.


Yes, there are some people that believe such things.


Why? Because I am a Mormon.

...

Rick Leland

posted 4/07/08 @ 9:18 AM PST

Setting the Record Straight. Part 2

1. God bless Kyle Hanson. He has the right to say and believe as he wishes. God gives all a free will. And a free won't.

2. Mormons/LDS'er have a right to call themselves Christians. Free will, Free won't. God bless them.

3. From an elementary Biblical perspective, it would be impossilbe to conclude that a Mormon/LDS'er is a Christian. That is simple confusion. And a basic shifting of truth.

4. God bless Kyle Hanson. I wonder if he think his Ford Mustang is a Chevy Nova. Free will. Free won't.
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Will Garrett

posted 4/07/08 @ 12:06 PM PST

Originally posted by

Rick Leland

 Setting the Record Straight. Part 2

1. God bless Kyle Hanson. He has the right to say and believe as he wishes. God gives all a free will. And a free won't.

2. Mormons/LDS'er have a right to call themselves Christians. Free will, Free won't. God bless them.

3. From an elementary Biblical perspective, it would be impossilbe to conclude that a Mormon/LDS'er is a Christian. That is simple confusion. And a basic shifting of truth.

4. God bless Kyle Hanson. I wonder if he think his Ford Mustang is a Chevy Nova. Free will. Free won't.


Without you explaining what you mean by an "elementary Bible perspective" it would be impossible to conclude what you mean by your third point. As someone who has read the whole Bible for himself as has talked with many Christians of varying denominations or no denomination I wonder what a Christian is, if it is not one who worships Him in a church that carries his name and has faith in Him as Savior and Redeemer, as do Latter-day Saints.
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Rick Leland

posted 4/07/08 @ 2:36 PM PST

Originally posted by

Rick Leland

 Setting the Record Straight. Part 2

1. God bless Kyle Hanson. He has the right to say and believe as he wishes. God gives all a free will. And a free won't.

2. Mormons/LDS'er have a right to call themselves Christians. Free will, Free won't. God bless them.

3. From an elementary Biblical perspective, it would be impossilbe to conclude that a Mormon/LDS'er is a Christian. That is simple confusion. And a basic shifting of truth.

4. God bless Kyle Hanson. I wonder if he think his Ford Mustang is a Chevy Nova. Free will. Free won't.


God bless you Will. I can tell you're a Mormon/LDS'er. Why don't you just come out and say it.

Everyone can tell I'm a Christian. Flatout no tricky, tricky deception. That's what makes me wonder about Mormons/LDS'er.

Come on, just tell it like it is. I'll still listen.

God bless you Will.
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setaf

posted 4/07/08 @ 5:14 PM PST

[QUOTE God bless you Will. I can tell you're a Mormon/LDS'er. Why don't you just come out and say it.

Everyone can tell I'm a Christian. Flatout no tricky, tricky deception. That's what makes me wonder about Mormons/LDS'er.

Come on, just tell it like it is. I'll still listen.

God bless you Will.[/QUOTE]

Rick,
I find it interesting that you say everyone can tell you are a Christian. So far as I can see all we have is your word for it. Just how are we to know you are a Christian and Kyle isn't? From waht I can tell, most of today's Christians profess their Christianity because they will shout down anyone whom they disagree with. Granted you did not shout, but I'm still curious as to how we may believe you are and Kyle is not. From what I've seen over the years, many churches, no matter what persuasion can be "tricky" and practice some deception.
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Rick Leland

posted 4/07/08 @ 6:51 PM PST

Originally posted by

Rick Leland

 Setting the Record Straight. Part 2

1. God bless Kyle Hanson. He has the right to say and believe as he wishes. God gives all a free will. And a free won't.

2. Mormons/LDS'er have a right to call themselves Christians. Free will, Free won't. God bless them.

3. From an elementary Biblical perspective, it would be impossilbe to conclude that a Mormon/LDS'er is a Christian. That is simple confusion. And a basic shifting of truth.

4. God bless Kyle Hanson. I wonder if he think his Ford Mustang is a Chevy Nova. Free will. Free won't.


Ouch! That hurt. But so true. I go in peace I leave my peace. We Christians, I include myself, are too often a disgrace to the Lord we serve. I'm sorry. Forgive me.
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frank

posted 4/07/08 @ 9:33 AM PST

Say, can I be a 'Mormon' if I have heard the names Kathy Sheets and Steve Christensen, or have heard of a 'Jupiter Talisman', or have a passing knowledge of the events of Sept. 11, 1857?
Yes, but not a good one!
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Will Garrett

posted 4/07/08 @ 12:11 PM PST

Originally posted by

frank

 Say, can I be a 'Mormon' if I have heard the names Kathy Sheets and Steve Christensen, or have heard of a 'Jupiter Talisman', or have a passing knowledge of the events of Sept. 11, 1857?
Yes, but not a good one!


Quite an uninformed comment mentioning three things that had little if nothing to do with the article.
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Russell

posted 4/07/08 @ 3:21 PM PST

Originally posted by

frank

 Say, can I be a 'Mormon' if I have heard the names Kathy Sheets and Steve Christensen, or have heard of a 'Jupiter Talisman', or have a passing knowledge of the events of Sept. 11, 1857?
Yes, but not a good one!


Odd...I know (probably more than most) about the names/items/events you dropped...and I stand in full fellowship...

You must know better than me about the status of my membership...

Please do stop being so provincial...it only delegitimizes your comments and I always hate to see that happen, even with those who disagree.
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MarkM

posted 4/09/08 @ 12:07 PM PST

Originally posted by

frank

 Say, can I be a 'Mormon' if I have heard the names Kathy Sheets and Steve Christensen, or have heard of a 'Jupiter Talisman', or have a passing knowledge of the events of Sept. 11, 1857?
Yes, but not a good one!


A Jupiter Talisman? Really? Are you going to haul out the single most clearly refuted piece of garbage about Mormons and present it as though it matters? Even the professor who presented this idea in the first place (that Joseph Smith had some kind of occult talisman in his pocket when he was killed), Dr. Reed Durham, later said that "the idea that (Smith) had such a talisman is highly questionable."

C'mon. Let's not just go crazy here.
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John

posted 4/17/08 @ 3:41 AM PST

Originally posted by

frank

 Say, can I be a 'Mormon' if I have heard the names Kathy Sheets and Steve Christensen, or have heard of a 'Jupiter Talisman', or have a passing knowledge of the events of Sept. 11, 1857?
Yes, but not a good one!


Knowing about these things doesn't make anyone a bad mormon, but believing that these are some secret keys of knowledge is rather naive.
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JLFuller

posted 4/07/08 @ 10:26 AM PST

Great article. If I can, I would like to add a couple of things about us that are misunderstood too. First, LDS missionaries do not convert anyone. In fact, no human being does that job. True conversion is the job of the Holy Ghost. That doesn't mean every new memebr (or old for that matter) can claim such a confirmation. Many join for other reasons such as family pressure which is unfortunate, but if you ask most new converts I think they will say it was the spirit they felt in the Church followed by a confirmation by the Holy Ghost that what they were taught, read and heard was true. In fact, we rely on this confirmation to testify of the truthfulness of most things such as pronouncements from the Church leadership and callings in the Church. These confirmations by the Holy Ghost are communications directly from God down to even the most humble of human beings and can be had by everyone who prepares him or herself to listen for them. It is a process not an event however and requires comliance with the Lord's commandments in order to open this line of communication. It is by this power that prophets today conduct the affairs of the Church. It is the same power that Abraham, Moses, Elijah and all the propets of the bible used to direct God's affairs on the earth. It really works. Once a person has this confirmation by the Holy Ghost you just can't deny it. Something happens inside that opens a new dimension to one's understanding. If one continues to obey the commnadments then their ability to understand grows and becomes deeper until that final day when all of God's work will be opened to our understanding. There is so much more to what God has in store for his children than what has been offered by others. It is availbale to every human being regardless of who they are or where they live.
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Sharon

posted 4/07/08 @ 10:56 AM PST

Kyle, you wrote, "After Joseph Smith established the church in 1830, there was a huge amount of persecution. Members of the church were driven from New York to Ohio and then to Missouri." It is my understanding that the Church moved from New York and Ohio by choice; members were not, in those instances, driven by "persecution." The Prophet moved the Church from New York to Ohio because there were more members in Ohio at that time; and the Church moved from Ohio to Missouri because of overwhelming financial problems attributable to the collapse of Joseph's Kirtland Bank. The actual persecutions perpetrated against the Saints were horrible and shameful for this great nation to have allowed. However, it serves no good purpose to exaggerate the wrongs and cast blame where it doesn't belong.
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Russell

posted 4/07/08 @ 3:25 PM PST

Originally posted by

Sharon

 Kyle, you wrote, "After Joseph Smith established the church in 1830, there was a huge amount of persecution. Members of the church were driven from New York to Ohio and then to Missouri." It is my understanding that the Church moved from New York and Ohio by choice; members were not, in those instances, driven by "persecution." The Prophet moved the Church from New York to Ohio because there were more members in Ohio at that time; and the Church moved from Ohio to Missouri because of overwhelming financial problems attributable to the collapse of Joseph's Kirtland Bank. The actual persecutions perpetrated against the Saints were horrible and shameful for this great nation to have allowed. However, it serves no good purpose to exaggerate the wrongs and cast blame where it doesn't belong.


Excellent question, Sharon...to attribute moncausality to either of these situations is to simplify...true, there were no extermination orders in NY or OH...however, in OH especially, there was tremendous ill-will...Joseph Smith himself was tarred and feathered in Hiram.

That said, you are also right...we LDS need to realize that we can be correct without the overwhelming sense of collective persecution that we sometimes dwell on...worse things on greater magnitudes have been done in US and global history (though their driving out of my ancestors was nothing less than horrific)...

Thanks for the respectful post.
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Snoop Dog

posted 4/07/08 @ 11:55 AM PST

What are you talking about Frank? Mormons are the shizzle.
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frank

posted 4/07/08 @ 2:48 PM PST

Originally posted by

Snoop Dog

 What are you talking about Frank? Mormons are the shizzle.

Sorry, my comment was so cryptic. Please reference "Victims" by Richard E.Turley, Jr., "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" by D. Michael Quinn, and "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" by Juanita Brooks.
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Mike

posted 4/07/08 @ 6:19 PM PST

I know that Jesus Christ lives, and strive every day to follow his example through loving and serving others. Through Jesus Christ, and only Jesus Christ, can I gain salvation. The gospel of Jesus Christ has changed me and continues to change me into a more patient, kind, and loving human being. I study daily from the Bible so that I can better learn the teachings of, and increase my faith in, Jesus Christ. And...I am a faithful, practicing "Mormon". I wish you all nothing but the best.

For a more general treatise on how Mormons are Christian, follow this link to a talk given over this last weekend by a modern day apostle and special witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Scroll to "Saturday Afternoon Session" then click on the mp3 icon next to Jeffery R. Holland.

http://lds.org/conference/sessions/display/0,5239,23-1-851,00.html
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Bill

posted 4/07/08 @ 7:10 PM PST

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that it's not those who cry "Lord, Lord" who will get into Heaven but those who do God's will. If you read the entire Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says nothing about the trinity - a doctrine invented centuries later. He talks about living a certain kind of life. He talks about loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, giving to those in need, doing good works quietly, etc. He says if you only do good to those who are good to you, you're not any better than the phonies. He finishes it off by saying, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."

Given a choice between the two, I'll take the soft-spoken Mormon - as a Christian - over the loud lart who treats his Christianity as if it were a social club.
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Kimberly

posted 4/07/08 @ 8:17 PM PST

Mormons have horns! The only people I have ever heard say that are mormons who say that non-mormons believe this. Reconcile yourselves with the Bible and you will understand why Christians view you as strange.

A bible a bible we have a bible!
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contention or conviction?

posted 4/09/08 @ 4:41 PM PST

Originally posted by

Kimberly

 Mormons have horns! The only people I have ever heard say that are mormons who say that non-mormons believe this. Reconcile yourselves with the Bible and you will understand why Christians view you as strange.

A bible a bible we have a bible!


That's a great point that you bring up; when the missionaries come calling, they seemingly never want to discuss scripture with me, feeling a 'spirit of contention' coming on. In other words, 'you listen, we talk, or we walk'. It breaks my heart because I feel these folks honestly love the Lord and want to serve him, but they're so misguided by false doctrine that many of them can't begin to consider how Mormon doctrines don't square with what we're taught in the Bible. I praise God for hearing my prayers, as I have witnessed two of them in my life (thus far) convert to Christianity; they found the truth of the Gospel in the scriptures, and nothing else.
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JD

posted 4/08/08 @ 2:27 AM PST

Great article! The idea that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity is technically not accurate, although many Mormons (and even some Mormon leaders) claim that they are not Trinitarian. I suspect this rejection of the "Trinitarian" label is born of the Mormon rejection of the Nicene Creed. The truth is, Trinitarians also believe that "God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings that are one in purpose and supremacy," just as Mormons do. In contrast to "modalism," an early Christian heresy that taught that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one, Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are as much three as they are one. It is true, however, that the Mormon view of the Trinity is subtly different than the orthodox Christian view. Mormon belief actually comes very close to the concept of "social Trinity" described by the Catholic theologian Karl Rahner and the Protestant theologian Jürgen Moltmann.
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Don

posted 4/08/08 @ 7:47 AM PST

Since the days of Joseph Smith, so-called "Christians" have belittled, lied about, distorted and twisted nearly everything LDS believe. The LDS have responded, defended, stood up for and tried to educate their accusers. If you stripped away all theology, which group would parallel the early Christians, and which would parallel those who put the Savior to death? At least they're not dragging us out into the streets, raping our women and killing us in the name of the Christ they profess. So...I suppose it has gotten better.
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Herb

posted 4/09/08 @ 8:08 PM PST

not so fast.... what about the Mormon missionary in Mesa Arizona last week lured out of his apartment late at night and beaten by two masked men yelling insults about the Mormon religion? Deja'vu or new wave pass-time/hate crime? I guess as long as we are considered "NOT CHRISTIAN" its more acceptable or tollarable to hate us? By their fruits ye shall know them? I'd rather se a sermon than hear one any day, I'd rather someone walk with me than merely point the way... If yer gonna talk the talk, then ya better walk the walk MR Christian....
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m.s

posted 4/08/08 @ 12:32 PM PST

great article.. yes all around the world i'm from mexico.. so nope.. not all LDS are from Utah..
oh my.. people always ask "is it true that mormons can have more than one wife?".. NO WAY! i can't believe their ignorance.. people talkin about things they don't know
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Running Fish

posted 4/08/08 @ 1:53 PM PST

Excellent article. I am LDS, and I've had broad exposure to many faiths and cultures. I have lived most of my life in a conspicuous way as a small religious minority. For the most part, people of other faiths have been good to me.

I'm in the process of reading the Koran (again). While it is not my book of scripture, I am learning much from its pages. Muhammed was inspired to begin Islam in response to what he viewed as the degraded condition of the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians around 600 A.D.). In his view, the People of the Book had (for the most part) become shallow in their faith, hypocritical, and worldly. The Islamic restoration differs from the LDS view of the restoration of religious faith and authority, but its commonalities are intriguing. Modern-day adherents are not off the hook. Are we, including Mormons, being true to what we've been given? If more of us asked that more often and with more humility I think we'd all get along better.
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Ryan Jolley

posted 4/08/08 @ 5:44 PM PST

Excellent article. And as no good deed goes unpunished, there are those that disagree by being disagreeable. Sometimes you just have to laugh...and ask...really folks? I doubt they are anti...more ill informed than anything.
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Pay Lay Ale

posted 4/08/08 @ 7:10 PM PST

How typical of a mormon to lie for the lord and use straw man arguments. Who claims that mormon masonic temple spires are antennas? Or that mormons sacrifice babies in temples? Hmm?? If you can't show anyone claiming that, then you're lying for the lord.

"Oh, wait, but Mormons aren't Christians, right?

Wrong."

I'll make you a deal. I'll agree that mormons are christians if you agree that Warren Jeffs and FLDS are mormons.

"We do not worship Joseph Smith, Mormon, Moroni, Gordon B. Hinckley or any other man."

O RLY? Then why the hymn, "Praise to the Man?" Why are your profits worshipped like rockstars? Worship doesn't just entail prayer to something. Worship includes many forms of adoration.

"Some other groups have tried to label my church as a cult, but that label does not really make sense. By the basic definition of the word, all churches could be considered cults, as they are all groups of people following a leader."

If you're going to define the word 'cult' to include everyone, then the word has no meaning. Mormonism is a cult because it uses nearly every single documented mind control tactic.

"here are more members of the church outside of the United States than there are inside."

Another lie. According to Merril Bateman, there's only about 4 million mormons worldwide. The CUNY Religious Self Identification Survey shows only 2.7 million in the US, less than half what LDS Inc claims.

"I am grateful to live in a country that allows me to practice my religion in accordance with my beliefs."

You don't. Your doctrine includes polygamy. See D&C 132. You aren't allowed to practice it.

"The Saints were driven from Missouri in the dead of winter. Homes were burned, women were raped, and men and boys were killed. "

18 mormons were killed. But you don't tell the whole story. Mormons were a lawless people then and had just killed state militia at the battle of crooked river. Signey Rigdon issued the 1st extermination order, not Boggs.

Oh, and mormons killed 120 men, women, and children at mountain meadows. The 3rd worst mass murder in US History.

"Once again, the Saints were forced to leave their homes in winter."

Lying for the lord again, eh? It was over a period of two years after Horny Joe was killed that mormons left IL to UT.

"But at the same time, we cannot ever let what happened to the early Latter-day Saints happen again."

You mean getting conned by con men? I guess we should shutdown Tahitian Noni, Xango, and NuSkin.
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Lise

posted 4/09/08 @ 10:38 AM PST

Originally posted by

Pay Lay Ale
"here are more members of the church outside of the United States than there are inside."

Another lie. According to Merril Bateman, there's only about 4 million mormons worldwide. The CUNY Religious Self Identification Survey shows only 2.7 million in the US, less than half what LDS Inc claims.

I found the quote you've misquoted. It comes from a Salt Lake Tribune interview with Merrill J. Bateman, dated Sep. 1st, 2005: "He agreed the LDS Church's worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.

Bateman said that number doesn't count those in undeveloped countries who find it difficult to attend sacrament meetings. 'So you might have in the neighborhood of . . . 4 [million] and 5 million members attending church at any given time, but those who are active would be more than that."
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Martin

posted 4/09/08 @ 10:54 AM PST

Originally posted by

Pay Lay Ale

Another lie. The CUNY Religious Self Identification Survey shows only 2.7 million in the US, less than half what LDS Inc claims.



This survey only counts "adults" who responded to the survey in 2001. I imagine many declined to participate in the survey.
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Lise

posted 4/09/08 @ 11:18 AM PST

Originally posted by

Pay Lay Ale
"here are more members of the church outside of the United States than there are inside."

Another lie. According to Merril Bateman, there's only about 4 million mormons worldwide. The CUNY Religious Self Identification Survey shows only 2.7 million in the US, less than half what LDS Inc claims.

I've found the quote from the article to which you referred. It was an interview with Merrill J. Bateman in the Salt Lake Tribune on Sept 1st, 2005:

"He agreed the LDS Church's worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.

Bateman said that number doesn't count those in undeveloped countries who find it difficult to attend sacrament meetings. 'So you might have in the neighborhood of . . . 4 [million] and 5 million members attending church at any given time, but those who are active would be more than that."

Notice please, he said he "disagreed with researchers..."
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Pay Lay Ale

posted 4/09/08 @ 7:37 PM PST

[QUOTE id="Martin"]This survey only counts "adults" who responded to the survey in 2001. I imagine many declined to participate in the survey.[/QUOTE]

If you go read the methodology for the CUNY Survey, you'll see that yes, the survey only consisted of adults, BUT, it asked about children and which religion they're being raised in. So children are included in the number.

Like any scientific survey, you have a level of nonresponse. That doesn't really affect anything and the results are adjusted accordingly.
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Doug

posted 4/09/08 @ 3:16 AM PST

I was born and raised Mormon (yes, we really do call each other Mormon) and feel it necessary to challenge the credibility of the old myth that there's a myth (or ever WAS a myth) that Mormons "have horns". Its a joke, always has been a joke, and will continue to be a joke. Many of us as do/did not realize when a Sunday School teacher is pulling our leg.
As for the rest of the bizzare accusations Kyle has made of what the "world" views us Mormons such as alien antenna or catapulting virgins, is anyone that gullible? Is Kyle gullible enough to think someone holds those ideas seriously, even those telling him that to his face? There are genuine false ideas the public at large may hold about Mormons, but those are certainly not it. Ridiculous and distracting from the real issues the world has had with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Just to further reiterate: It is not offensive to call LDS members Mormons. Its simply a formatting preference the Church leaders request in official documents and of the press at large (use of the terms The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs. Mormon Church). The point? The want the "Jesus Christ" part emphasized in the press, not the "Mormon" or "Latter-day" aspect. See http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/style-guide
The LDS Church even runs official websites with the term Mormon in it: mormon.org and mormontimes.com.
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Martin Smith

posted 4/09/08 @ 10:16 AM PST

Originally posted by

Doug

 The LDS Church even runs official websites with the term Mormon in it: mormon.org and mormontimes.com.


Sorry to be nitpicky but mormontimes.com is not an official LDS Church website. It is produced by the Deseret Morning News, owned by a subsidiary of a for-profit business holdings company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (widely known as the Mormon or LDS Church). [See Wikipedia]
Thanks for the good article Kyle Hansen and Spartan Daily
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Doug

posted 4/09/08 @ 9:08 PM PST

Originally posted by

Doug

 I was born and raised Mormon (yes, we really do call each other Mormon) and feel it necessary to challenge the credibility of the old myth that there's a myth (or ever WAS a myth) that Mormons "have horns". Its a joke, always has been a joke, and will continue to be a joke. Many of us as do/did not realize when a Sunday School teacher is pulling our leg.
As for the rest of the bizzare accusations Kyle has made of what the "world" views us Mormons such as alien antenna or catapulting virgins, is anyone that gullible? Is Kyle gullible enough to think someone holds those ideas seriously, even those telling him that to his face? There are genuine false ideas the public at large may hold about Mormons, but those are certainly not it. Ridiculous and distracting from the real issues the world has had with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Just to further reiterate: It is not offensive to call LDS members Mormons. Its simply a formatting preference the Church leaders request in official documents and of the press at large (use of the terms The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs. Mormon Church). The point? The want the "Jesus Christ" part emphasized in the press, not the "Mormon" or "Latter-day" aspect. See http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/style-guide
The LDS Church even runs official websites with the term Mormon in it: mormon.org and mormontimes.com.


Why does it matter if its the for-profit arm or the non-profit arm? The for-profit arm is owned, controlled, and operated by the non-profit arm. The distinction is not too meaningful. Its still under the full control of the First Presidency. Another example: Deseret Book is run under the for-profit arm, yet publishes all the Hymnals, and many other officially sanctioned publications. A petty, and useless distinction if you ask me.
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Martin

posted 4/10/08 @ 2:32 PM PST

[QUOTE id="924f142b-b137-45fe-8808-ace86a3bde42"]Why does it matter if its the for-profit arm or the non-profit arm? The for-profit arm is owned, controlled, and operated by the non-profit arm. The distinction is not too meaningful. Its still under the full control of the First Presidency. Another example: Deseret Book is run under the for-profit arm, yet publishes all the Hymnals, and many other officially sanctioned publications. A petty, and useless distinction if you ask me.
QUOTE]
Like I said before, I don't mean to nitpick and create an argument but there is a big difference between official and non-official publications. Not all items published by Deseret Book or the Deseret News or broadcast on KSL TV/radio, even though they are directly or indirectly owned by the LDS Church, are official LDS material or statements.
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Barde

posted 4/09/08 @ 3:20 AM PST

Who the hell is Merril Bateman.
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Ol' Missourah

posted 4/09/08 @ 3:53 AM PST

Thanks PLA, I was wondering if someone was going to correct this. Like we're all a bunch o' investigators or something! Forgot to mention the Danites, the Magical Book o' Abraham, White Salamander and a whole bunch o' other goodness, too.

At any rate, they're generally nice folks and we love'em, although we cannot agree with their false doctrines.

Jesus Christ is Lord!
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meri

posted 4/09/08 @ 9:54 AM PST

Just because you have not heard of some of the accusations that he mentions does not mean that they have not been made. When I was on a mission in France years ago, I heard many, including that the missionaries captured young girls and locked them in the Salt Lake Temple but that they jumped out the window into the Great Salt Lake and swam to freedom. (In fact, that was actually in a book written in the late 1800's by a member of the Acadamie Francaise (sp? my French is outdated.)

Many of the statements of rebuttal are factually incorrect, including the statistics on numbers. Check the websites for updates. The LDS church is now the 4th largest Christian denomination in the US. (And that is NOT a claim made on the LDS websites. Try googling.)
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Ol' Missourah

posted 4/09/08 @ 11:01 AM PST

Originally posted by

meri

 Just because you have not heard of some of the accusations that he mentions does not mean that they have not been made. When I was on a mission in France years ago, I heard many, including that the missionaries captured young girls and locked them in the Salt Lake Temple but that they jumped out the window into the Great Salt Lake and swam to freedom. (In fact, that was actually in a book written in the late 1800's by a member of the Acadamie Francaise (sp? my French is outdated.)

Many of the statements of rebuttal are factually incorrect, including the statistics on numbers. Check the websites for updates. The LDS church is now the 4th largest Christian denomination in the US. (And that is NOT a claim made on the LDS websites. Try googling.)


Yet how many of these 'members' are active or ever step foot inside of a stake again? Counting converts is not the same as counting active members, as the Deseret News itself has pointed out again and again. The LDS church is bleeding members as they don't remain active. Few if any other churches have made it so difficult to get their members names off of official church rolls. I know, it took months to get my wife's name off the LDS books, and she hadn't been active in nearly 15 years.
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Utaitaiyo

posted 4/11/08 @ 4:35 AM PST

And just how many of the members of other 'Christian' churches go every single week? How many of them set a foot in their churches per year? Even with the inactives, less actives, and whoever else you want to include, the LDS church has larger and more faithful churchgoers than the majority of other faiths. How many others usually and regularly forgo other outdoor activities on Sundays?
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Robert

posted 4/09/08 @ 12:41 PM PST

This Pay Lay Ale is looking to start fire, isn't he?
So I refuse to fight most of what he said.

But know this:


I could drink alcohol, swear, ignore tithing, and commit all kinds of things against my beliefs, and never get caught.
There's no mind control. just people making a conscious effort to do what is right. We look to leaders when we're not sure. where do you look?
I know what I believe and will live it.

I follow the Spirit and my life is awesome. following what I've been taught has made me healthy, intelligent, and attractive. I have a girlfriend. I have developed some of the best qualities for people my age."Mormonism" is an excellent way of life, that is irrefutable.



The twisting of the word worship needs to be noticed, too. The men listed we use as role models.
They are praised(PRAISE to the Man) and revered. NOT worshiped.
I would bow to the earth in the presence of Christ without hesitation. but to no one else. that's the only physical example I can give.


This guy's argument over statistics holds no water, either. We now have 13+ million members around the world, 6 mil in the US. some of them are inactive, yes, but to account for that would be to judge against them, as if to say they don't belong.



Last, polygamy is in the Bible. God is ok with it, and has in some ages mandated it. We began it, and society rejected it, made it illegal. as my old bishop, Bishop Boston liked to point out, the first law of heaven is obedience. God expects us to adhere to authority, as long as it's not directly against him, and thus we practice it no more. This is how it's been for over a century. Sadly, FLDS are not obedient to the laws of the land, and have been slowly led away from the lord.


on a p.s./ personal note, society today isn't mature enough to keep one marriage, let alone multiple. no wonder God let it stop so early on.

I feel sorry for those that attack. True happiness can not be found in ridiculing others. My advice to everyone who reads this is this :

look for the truth with humility. consider everything. by their fruits ye shall know them- this means observe the consequences of their actions. it's rather simple:
sex = stds & pregnancy, service = accomplishment & respect, smoking = smells and stains on teeth and lungs, kindness and tolerance = friendship.
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Chris Plummer

posted 4/09/08 @ 1:25 PM PST

People don't' believe you throw virgins off the temple, people don't' believe Mormons have horns... unless you are living in some 3rd world country. I live in the Bay Area as well and I think I can give my fellow man enough credit to think they know Mormons are a religion albeit a strange one.

My question to you is this: Why do most mormons feel that they need to convert us when telling us about Mormonism. If I ask a question, it is not to get your testimony, I actually want an answer.

For example if I ask co-worker if he would like a cup of coffee while I'm up, the response should be "no thanks." But instead it is: "I don't drink coffee," which begs the question: "Why dont' you drink coffee?" then I have to listen to his testimony of his church? Why does everyone have to be converted? Why can people just live and let live?
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RE: meri

posted 4/09/08 @ 4:35 PM PST

"...Many of the statements of rebuttal are factually incorrect,..."

Which ones?
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polytheism and Mormonism

posted 4/09/08 @ 11:13 PM PST

It's the polytheism that throws many folks off; after all, Almighty God tells us again and again that He is the only God, that He knows of none other besides Himself, and that is that. This is a basic doctrine in all creeds and denominations of Christianity, yet the Mormons claim to be Christians. Christians do not believe in many (G)ods.
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Jeff Silverstein

posted 4/10/08 @ 8:10 AM PST

You do a good job of responding to the insane claims that are sometimes made about the LDS Church, but why don't you respond to some sane ones? Like, do you believe that God used to be a man and that he now lives on a planet near a star called Kolob? Do you believe that Joseph Smith translated plates of gold by looking through transparent rocks? And while you're trying to distance yourself from polygamist sects, how many wives may a celestialize male have? Answer these questions forthright, and I'll give you some credit.
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M Lady

posted 4/12/08 @ 12:06 PM PST

Originally posted by

Jeff Silverstein

 You do a good job of responding to the insane claims that are sometimes made about the LDS Church, but why don't you respond to some sane ones? Like, do you believe that God used to be a man and that he now lives on a planet near a star called Kolob? Do you believe that Joseph Smith translated plates of gold by looking through transparent rocks? And while you're trying to distance yourself from polygamist sects, how many wives may a celestialize male have? Answer these questions forthright, and I'll give you some credit.


You are right, many people only feel the need to respond to the insane ones. However, many of the above are answers that we really don't know the answer to and will find out in the life to come. I have many questions, and I plan on asking them when I die. I do know this though, Joseph Smith did translate the Book of Mormon by the power God gave him. If that means that he did it by looking through stones, then so be it. God can do anything and will qualify the people he calls. If he wills that stones be the way to do it then it will be done.

As for the other questions you asked, we really don't know the answers. You wont find it in any Church Published documents. You may hear it from people, but most of the time it is their opinions and not doctrine. People aren't perfect, only God is.
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NorthboundZax

posted 4/10/08 @ 12:30 PM PST

It is difficult for a Latter Day Saint to understand why others don't think Mormons are Christians despite a belief in Jesus Christ and the bible. However, it can make a lot more sense when they answer the question why most LDS and the institutional church deny that the FLDS, Kingston clan, or any of the large number of offshoots can be considered 'Mormon' despite their belief in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
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Martin

posted 4/16/08 @ 11:58 AM PST

Originally posted by

NorthboundZax

 It is difficult for a Latter Day Saint to understand why others don't think Mormons are Christians despite a belief in Jesus Christ and the bible. However, it can make a lot more sense when they answer the question why most LDS and the institutional church deny that the FLDS, Kingston clan, or any of the large number of offshoots can be considered 'Mormon' despite their belief in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.


Are offshoots of the Catholic Church (Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc.) still considered Catholic?
When someone speaks of "Mormons", they generally refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't know if members of the Kingston Clan or RLDS call themselves Mormons.
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Pastor Dale

posted 4/14/08 @ 10:46 AM PST

The biggest problem here is defining being a Christian as "following Jesus' teachings" because it puts the onus on us. Christianity is about faith--that's God's will for us. It's about what God has done for us, not about what we do. We are saved by faith alone, not our works. Otherwise, why did Jesus have to die, and why do we have to pick up the slack for what He didn't cover?

Aside from that, Kyle also fails to mention that his god did not create the universe, but rather was once a man on another planet. My God says, "I'm not a man, am I?" Their god says, "As man is, god once was, and as god is, man may become." That was the serpent's temptation, wasn't it? "If you [sin], you will become like God."

Even if an angel from heaven should bring a different gospel, let him be accursed. It's like St. Paul had Moroni in mind. This is a different Jesus.
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Martin

posted 4/18/08 @ 8:27 AM PST

Originally posted by

Pastor Dale

 The biggest problem here is defining being a Christian as "following Jesus' teachings" because it puts the onus on us. Christianity is about faith--that's God's will for us. It's about what God has done for us, not about what we do. We are saved by faith alone, not our works. Otherwise, why did Jesus have to die, and why do we have to pick up the slack for what He didn't cover?

Aside from that, Kyle also fails to mention that his god did not create the universe, but rather was once a man on another planet. My God says, "I'm not a man, am I?" Their god says, "As man is, god once was, and as god is, man may become." That was the serpent's temptation, wasn't it? "If you [sin], you will become like God."

Even if an angel from heaven should bring a different gospel, let him be accursed. It's like St. Paul had Moroni in mind. This is a different Jesus.


Christianity is much more than about proclaiming having faith. My version of the Bible (KJV) mentions that "faith without works is dead". To me that includes baptism, keeping the Commandments, doing good to others, etc. Of course none of this matters without the Grace of God and the Atonement of Christ.
Satan's lie was that Adam and Eve would not die after partaking of the forbidden fruit, not that they would become like God. Christ commanded his disciples to be perfect, to become like Him and our Father in Heaven. Our reward, we would receive all that He has.
This is the same Jesus that Peter, James, Paul and yes, Moroni spoke about.
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John Doe

posted 4/15/08 @ 7:14 PM PST

I think this goes to show that some peoples "opinions" are best left in their own mind. I've talked with several Mormons and several Christians (NOT THE SAME!!!! FYI!) about this article, and all that I've talked to disagree with about 99% of the article. The 1% they agree with is "I'm a Mormom), because who can argue that?

Basically.....this is a bogus article.

-JD (SJSU student)
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